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Post by xpistissopheiax on Aug 11, 2013 21:41:45 GMT -5
Archons and the demi-urge are typically spoken of as metaphors, however (if I remember correctly) Karen King said that one translation of the Secret Revelation of John mentions a demon that afflicts each part of the body.
So if that is the case it seems they are more literal doesn't it? Maybe I'm just getting my wires crossed, but I was wondering where the literalist view of angels/demons switched to the more metaphorical view.
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Post by rmcdra on Aug 12, 2013 15:47:34 GMT -5
The ancient gnostics were probably a mix of literal and figurative but they were using what was known at the time. (Miasma was the leading theory about disease at the time just to give you an example). They used the types and images of their time to explain ideas and concepts.
We can probably thank Jung for taking a metaphoric view of the texts. Also the Gospel of Philip goes into great detail about explaining how truth is conveyed in types and images which would suggest that the message was more important the facts though I'm sure they believed their facts were right.
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Aug 16, 2013 21:23:33 GMT -5
A lot of people seem to embrace the metaphorical view. I'm just curious why there has been a desire to completely abandon ideas like angels and demons?
I'm sure Jung had a lot of great insights, however it still seems odd to me. If people can embrace the idea of God as literal, I'm not sure how the idea of lesser spiritual beings that inhabit our world may appear irrational.
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Post by Soulgazer on Aug 17, 2013 0:21:35 GMT -5
A lot of people seem to embrace the metaphorical view. I'm just curious why there has been a desire to completely abandon ideas like angels and demons? I'm sure Jung had a lot of great insights, however it still seems odd to me. If people can embrace the idea of God as literal, I'm not sure how the idea of lesser spiritual beings that inhabit our world may appear irrational. I can only speak for myself; I know God is real. The rest, meh, not so sure of. Not ever having exxperienced angels and demons, (and not really wanting to) I cannot honestly attest to any reality that they might contain, so I treat them as metaphorical(for now). If someone catches an angel on video chatting it up with a demon, my opinion would certainly change. You milage may vary. |
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Aug 17, 2013 1:26:06 GMT -5
That makes sense  |
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Aug 17, 2013 2:39:12 GMT -5
How do you know that the god you know isn't an angel or a demon SG? How would anyone know?
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Post by Soulgazer on Aug 17, 2013 4:57:17 GMT -5
How do you know that the god you know isn't an angel or a demon SG? How would anyone know? How do you know water is wet, and what "wet" is? |
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Aug 18, 2013 0:10:35 GMT -5
I think you have to be able to use your intuition, but without trusting it completely. We can't "know" anything 100% for sure, but we have to use all the tools we have available and just do our best.
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Post by phantasman on Aug 21, 2013 13:11:17 GMT -5
How do you know that the god you know isn't an angel or a demon SG? How would anyone know? How do you know water is wet, and what "wet" is? Perception, then? A person see's the sky as blue, but is it the same blue as you see. If you could see through his eyes, it may appear as your green? One would never know, right? But it's still the sky. The senses, then, cannot be relied on for truth, at least spiritual truth. |
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Post by rmcdra on Aug 21, 2013 17:15:35 GMT -5
Perception, then? A person see's the sky as blue, but is it the same blue as you see. If you could see through his eyes, it may appear as your green? One would never know, right? But it's still the sky. The senses, then, cannot be relied on for truth, at least spiritual truth. Your analogy falls short because they still recognized the sky and they have an agreement that it is the same color though the other person sees blue as green. While the person may perceive it as green, the sky is still reflecting the same frequency of light that can be objectively measured. Yes senses can be deceived but controls to avoid being deceived do exist. We can compare our experiences with others and sometimes we can repeatedly test an experience to see if we get the same results. Those are just a few that I can think off the top of my head but I do believe there is at least one more that I'm forgetting. |
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Post by Soulgazer on Aug 21, 2013 22:59:35 GMT -5
The worst possible outcome I could imagine, would be if I told someone what God was like and they believed me; then you're right back at the starting point.
I guess I have to say, look at Jesus. Not His physical form, but His "nature" as portrayed in John. He said He and the Father are one; If this is because He is the image of, or part of the Godhead makes no difference if they are one. He says He judges no man, so then neither does the Father---Rather, we judge ourselves by putting our faith in things that fall short.
So don't ask me who or what God is, because even if I knew with absolute certainty, my words could do nothing more than lead you astray...if that makes sense? I mean, I could try to describe what being wet feels like, but if you yourself have never been wet, you might THINK you know what wet is like, and then be terribly dissapointed in my description when you actuallly experience it.
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Post by phantasman on Aug 22, 2013 10:52:01 GMT -5
So, this is like the Pentecostal idea that if one has the Holy Spirit then they speak in tongues? I have never spoken in tongues. So should I feel I don't have the Holy Spirit? People have described to me in the past of what I "should" experience, or what they experience. I really don't wait for anything, but place trust and study and pray for truth. If something happens that emulates fireworks, so be it. Until then, I give all that I am, and "feel" complacent in Gods love.
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Post by Soulgazer on Aug 22, 2013 12:29:53 GMT -5
So, this is like the Pentecostal idea that if one has the Holy Spirit then they speak in tongues? I have never spoken in tongues. So should I feel I don't have the Holy Spirit? People have described to me in the past of what I "should" experience, or what they experience. I really don't wait for anything, but place trust and study and pray for truth. If something happens that emulates fireworks, so be it. Until then, I give all that I am, and "feel" complacent in Gods love. I guess I don't understand the thrust of your question? Personally I think anyone should search for God in whatever way that challenges them until they are sure they have found Him. If the Pentacostals want to believe that, they are welcome to it. I think the signs of the Holy spirit don't come from the mouth, but from a loving heart. |
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Post by phantasman on Aug 23, 2013 16:57:19 GMT -5
So, this is like the Pentecostal idea that if one has the Holy Spirit then they speak in tongues? I have never spoken in tongues. So should I feel I don't have the Holy Spirit? People have described to me in the past of what I "should" experience, or what they experience. I really don't wait for anything, but place trust and study and pray for truth. If something happens that emulates fireworks, so be it. Until then, I give all that I am, and "feel" complacent in Gods love. I guess I don't understand the thrust of your question? Personally I think anyone should search for God in whatever way that challenges them until they are sure they have found Him. If the Pentacostals want to believe that, they are welcome to it. I think the signs of the Holy spirit don't come from the mouth, but from a loving heart. I'm beginning to think I may have had that experience when I was 24. A man prayed with me (had already been water baptized) and something came over me I'll never forget. I saw Christ in my mind, I cried profusely, felt a warmth come over my body and laid on the floor sobbing. The man praying with me was just a Nazarene friend, a father of my friend. We haad been in his living room talking and he felt I needed prayer, as I was confused and disoriented. I'll never for get it. And since that day, I have always felt I was talking with God or Christ. Even as an alcoholic, I went through years drinking, yet in a drunken state I would cry out in prayer "why am I doing this?" or "I know better". This terrible part is behind me. It's as though, as bad as I was, God wass always with me. There were a couple of times I should have died, or came close, yet I am here. When I look back, God was with me, at least I feel he was. Because I add those experiences to my new found "eye opening" of scripture and truth. Remember when I first contacted you, James? I told you I was drawn from my searching? You have shown me many things. But my life, even at my age, feels like it's beginning again. |
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Post by Soulgazer on Aug 24, 2013 1:25:03 GMT -5
The indwelling Christ can only be visible when a person let's their love flow. If a person in overflowing with love, the rest is just empty words; but to get to that point, the words can either be beneficial or a hinderance.
I read in a scripture somewhere something to the effect of "how can you say that you love what you can't see, if you haven't learned to love that which you can see?". It really struck home.
It helps me to paraphrase or put in language that I myself use. When Jesus is recorded as saying "you will know a tree by it's fruit", I translate that to mean "the proof is in the pudding".
As always, your milage may vary.
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