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Post by rmcdra on Sept 24, 2014 9:47:50 GMT -5
The following question was asked:
"Where did the whole notion that Jesus died for our sins arise from. This idea is the central idea of the oldest forms of Protestantism (I assume also Catholicism too) that I could find. What document or release of the the cannon declared that as the way we were "saved." Just curious because it has such a strong following. I understand that it is ignorance of the material world, but where did it originate from."
Jesse stated the obvious which is that it started with Paul and Marcion since there's scripture of Paul saying that Christ died for our sins. When I saw this, I thought the person who asked this question was asking about when did substitutionary atonement or penal atonement start. Technically it is Paul and Marcion who would have came up with the idea but how that idea is interpreted now is much later. Am I reading too much into the question?
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Post by Soulgazer on Sept 26, 2014 6:17:10 GMT -5
"He said on that day in the thanksgiving, "You who have joined the perfect light with the Holy Spirit, unite the angels with us also, as being the images." Do not despise the lamb, for without it, it is not possible to see the king. No one will be able to go in to the king if he is naked. "~ Gospel of Philip
The author of Philip was in outright disagreement with Paul over the nature of the resurection in a different verse, but shared the concept of Jesus being the sacrificial "lamb"; so it is not a modern invention.
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Post by phantasman on Sept 26, 2014 9:18:55 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15 starts to explain:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Which scriptures? Would Paul use the old scriptures to teach a new gospel? He was talking to Gentiles, wasn't he?
The idea may expand more into the sins of those who were saved from the resurrection of the dead. Paul is very deep, as Peter alludes to:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.- 2 Peter 3
1 Corinthians 15 has many clues to the fact Jesus (physical) took on the sins of those who "had" died. Would he not minister to their spirits that slept then? Many (saints?) appeared to the masses after Jesus died. They had to have died in sin, IMO. They didn't know the way to die sinless.
It may be that Jesus died sinless to show us how to die sinless as well. We leave the sins at our own cross, our own crucifixion.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
To me, Jesus doesn't judge us with sins that follow us into spirituality. That means we would rise corruptible. I think it MAY be that Jesus taught us to make the spirit quickened so it doesn't sleep in it's sins, doesn't sleep in death, the grave, which all will be destroyed last, together.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Through Christ death is swallowed up in victory and the sins with it, and we become incorrupt. Jesus had to die first to show incorruptible resurection (the way). Through truth and light we merely follow or sleep. Throwing sins at Jesus makes no sense to me. Jesus showed me how to die, Christ showed me how to live.
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Post by friendofsophia on Sept 28, 2014 21:47:37 GMT -5
So for me, I was first introduced to this concept as a young child and it was in the form of something like: " Jesus died for our sins so we have a chance not to go to hell when we die." I remember even as a young child this did not make a bit of sense to me. However, the stories of Jesus were always inspiring. The importance above all he placed on love, the questioning of authority and of social status, the unimaginable forgiveness even for those who were torturing him; these all struck a deep chord with me.......yet he seemed so far removed from the wrathful god who was supposed to be his father who couldn't get over someone eating the wrong fruit out of his garden.
From this perspective, the sacrifice doesn't make any sense so I can see why a lot of people want to discover that Constantine threw it in there for shits and giggles. However, like Soulgazer pointed out, this is not the case. The idea of Jesus suffering for us is central to the story.....Gnostic or orthodox.......the why is the important part. Of course many of the Gnostics disagreed about the how of it, some saw having to incarnate in this world of pain and forgetfulness to save fallen Sophia to be the sacrifice itself.....but a sacrifice none the less. When you think about it, the story of innocent Jesus dying a shameful death yet being resurrected answers and expands upon the question: "Why do the innocent suffer in this world?" This world is unjust.....yet there is a power greater than this world.....a power that exist even in those society rejects........there is a loophole in their system........a Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it......there is a way, a truth, and a life worth living. I think Jesus was willing to die to show us this. I think Christ lives to show us this.... in our own individual ways. For our sins? Yes, if that's how you'd like to word it. However these sins are not of disobedience but of misunderstanding. We are saved not from a punishment imposed by God......but from ourselves and our identification with this illusory world by Christ paradoxically showing us who we really are........and that the worst thing we can imagine happening to us is really just the archon's smoke and mirrors!
Jesus said, "Stop lying (to yourself especially I think). Don't do what you hate". Simple advice that cuts through the false martyrdom that far to often gets attached to Christianity. Just as we would jump into deep polluted waters to save someone we deeply love, God came into this world to save us. The guilt of falling in will not help us to swim to shore.........but the remembrance of our intrinsic worth, based on who came to our aid, will give us all the strength we need!
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Post by phantasman on Sept 29, 2014 14:57:32 GMT -5
So for me, I was first introduced to this concept as a young child and it was in the form of something like: " Jesus died for our sins so we have a chance not to go to hell when we die." I remember even as a young child this did not make a bit of sense to me. However, the stories of Jesus were always inspiring. The importance above all he placed on love, the questioning of authority and of social status, the unimaginable forgiveness even for those who were torturing him; these all struck a deep chord with me.......yet he seemed so far removed from the wrathful god who was supposed to be his father who couldn't get over someone eating the wrong fruit out of his garden. From this perspective, the sacrifice doesn't make any sense so I can see why a lot of people want to discover that Constantine threw it in there for shits and giggles. However, like Soulgazer pointed out, this is not the case. The idea of Jesus suffering for us is central to the story.....Gnostic or orthodox.......the why is the important part. Of course many of the Gnostics disagreed about the how of it, some saw having to incarnate in this world of pain and forgetfulness to save fallen Sophia to be the sacrifice itself.....but a sacrifice none the less. When you think about it, the story of innocent Jesus dying a shameful death yet being resurrected answers and expands upon the question: "Why do the innocent suffer in this world?" This world is unjust.....yet there is a power greater than this world.....a power that exist even in those society rejects........there is a loophole in their system........a Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it......there is a way, a truth, and a life worth living. I think Jesus was willing to die to show us this. I think Christ lives to show us this.... in our own individual ways. For our sins? Yes, if that's how you'd like to word it. However these sins are not of disobedience but of misunderstanding. We are saved not from a punishment imposed by God......but from ourselves and our identification with this illusory world by Christ paradoxically showing us who we really are........and that the worst thing we can imagine happening to us is really just the archon's smoke and mirrors! Jesus said, "Stop lying (to yourself especially I think). Don't do what you hate". Simple advice that cuts through the false martyrdom that far to often gets attached to Christianity. Just as we would jump into deep polluted waters to save someone we deeply love, God came into this world to save us. The guilt of falling in will not help us to swim to shore.........but the remembrance of our intrinsic worth, based on who came to our aid, will give us all the strength we need! Yes, yes. Thinking of the spirit compared to the flesh, Jesus had to become clothed in flesh to whisper the truth to us. It would be more of a sacrifice to remove your spiritual glory to inhabit a fleshly body. Who would desire to have a body that has to eat, crap, breath, fear of being stoned, etc. To leave Heaven to reside with us is the greatest sacrifice, and I would almost bet Christ was glad to get rid of the nasty flesh, as we all should be. No one will hide a large valuable object in something large, but many a time one has tossed countless thousands into a thing worth a penny. Compare the soul. It is a precious thing and it came to be in a contemptible body. Fear not the flesh nor love it. If you fear it, it will gain mastery over you. If you love it, it will swallow and paralyze you. Both from Philip At least that's the image I see. |
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