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Post by waywardwanderer on May 26, 2013 21:50:17 GMT -5
This is something I have long wondered. Are there still prophets and more yet to come? Or has that time passed? Any personal opinions, scriptures your care too site? I am simply curious as to what others think, I my self have not made up my mind but I have not really done any research into the matter. I think another interesting and related question is what is a prophet exactly?
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Post by Soulgazer on May 27, 2013 9:10:01 GMT -5
This is something I have long wondered. Are there still prophets and more yet to come? Or has that time passed? Any personal opinions, scriptures your care too site? I am simply curious as to what others think, I my self have not made up my mind but I have not really done any research into the matter. I think another interesting and related question is what is a prophet exactly? If one defines a prophecy as a forcast of the future, my opinion is that there never really were any prophets to begin with. Studying the ancient texts critically, the "forecasts" are usually so vague as to be meaningless, or written after the fact. I believe that there certainly were and are charismatic individuals who have a gift for getting people to follow them. If there is a lesson that I take from it, it is not to give anyone other than Christ credence. As I said, it's just my personal opinion. If Moses really ever existed (There is less evidence for the existence of Moses than there is for Jesus), one has to think that he was extremely charismatic. Try walking into a town and convincing people that they should follow you because God spoke to you from a burning bush sometime.
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Post by waywardwanderer on May 27, 2013 16:59:11 GMT -5
I too have been somewhat skeptical of prophets that claim to predict the future. I have always thought of prophets more as people who reveal something of the nature of God or help men to reveal him for themselves.
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Post by Soulgazer on May 27, 2013 20:02:55 GMT -5
Ah, a verse! From secret James..............
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Post by Soulgazer on May 28, 2013 9:22:23 GMT -5
Interesting interpretation. I have always considered Christ as the master of human nature though, and His predictions based on the knowledge of types and images. Again, just personal opinion, but I put forth this passage from Gnostic Peter as a predictive piece that has already come true: "And still others of them who suffer think that they will perfect the wisdom of the brotherhood which really exists, which is the spiritual fellowship of those united in communion, through which the wedding of incorruptibility shall be revealed. The kindred race of the sisterhood will appear as an imitation. These are the ones who oppress their brothers, saying to them, "Through this our God has pity, since salvation comes to us through this," not knowing the punishment of those who are made glad by those who have done this thing to the little ones whom they saw, (and) whom they took prisoner."
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Post by Soulgazer on May 28, 2013 11:29:36 GMT -5
Apocalypse of Peter begins with the opening passage; " 1 . . . . many of them will be false prophets," (clearly not an overall blanket condemnation) and continues for it's entirety as an apocryphal work resulting from a visionary exchange with Christ. Yep; but again, I think the word "prophet" is not confined to predicting the future. To me, a "prophet" is someone who says "this is what God wants". To this end, Jesus had said "I am the way the truth and the light", and had refered to those that preceded him as thieves and robbers(cf John and Enoch) which I interpret as attempting to steal the "flock" from the God of love and giving it to the gods of violence. If we really study the "prophets" their predictive result rate was pretty dismal, so much so that it is a wonder they managed to keep their heads, let alone their jobs.
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Post by waywardwanderer on May 28, 2013 11:54:09 GMT -5
Interesting discussion guys. I understand that the passage quoted form Gnostic Peter is about the state of Christianity today but would you care to elaborate more on what you feel it means?
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Post by Soulgazer on May 28, 2013 13:56:55 GMT -5
Interesting discussion guys. I understand that the passage quoted form Gnostic Peter is about the state of Christianity today but would you care to elaborate more on what you feel it means? To me, it speaks of the inquisitions.
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Post by Soulgazer on May 31, 2013 23:07:27 GMT -5
Christ was never bashful, sparing or unclear in his castigations of those whom He disapproved. GOT:39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."*They couldn't have taken or hidden something that they did not have to begin with. GOT:102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."The argument that He (Christ) denounced prophecy is simply not scripturally supported. Indeed, the overwhelming body of scriptural reference to prophets (NT, NHS et al) would suggest the opposite. I am not aware of a single instance of Christ denouncing even one of the accepted "prophets" or their predictions. First my frosted side: He may have been preaching to an audience. Consider the dietary laws, and how strictly they were observed by Judaism. When he overturned them with a parable, it was not that the Diciples did not understand the Parable; they understood and were aghast that He was going against "Moses". "Are you so dull?" He asked, meaning in todays language, "Have you no common sense?". Also consider the "Eye for an Eye" law. "I bring you a better way", He said. This was blasphamous, as the Law was said to be perfect and the "word of God"....by saying that there was a "better way" the implication was that it was not perfect, and therefore not the word of God. I would refer you to Ptolomey's "Letter to Flora" for more examples. Yoiu might also want to take into consideration the "Gospel of John" wherin He stated that "all" who ever came before Him were as "thieves and robbers". Modern apologetics aim to show that "all" means everybody but whom modern Christianity hold near and dear, but I am of the opinion that in this scripture anyway, "all" means "all". Consider also that Judaism had no anthropomorphised devil figure, which did not come about untill the fifth century AD with Jeromes mistranslation of "Lucifer". The "devil" or "Satan" was anyone opposing God, usually a human. "He was a murderer from the beginning" could quite possibly be referring to Exodus 2:12. Now my Wheat side: These writings were written by late first centuiry/early second century writers who were seaking to differentiate themselves from traditional judaism. By not calling for circumcision alone, they were overturning the Torah--- remember to break one law was to break all 613 of them. Add to that the dietary rebellion, and you have a group that was turning traditional Judaism on it's ear. "Acts" states that St. Stephan was stoned for saying what Paul said in Galatians, and what the Author of Hebrews stated--- that the law was given to Moses, not by face to face with God, but "by angels", beings inferior even to men. There are vast amounts of reasons in the New Testament to question early christianities loyalties to "prophets".
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Post by Soulgazer on Jun 1, 2013 6:02:58 GMT -5
There are vast amounts of reasons in the New Testament to question early Christianities loyalties to "prophets".That's a tap dance. There just isn't any scriptural evidence to back that assertion. It's just pure conjecture. Take Paul for instance. (since you mention him) If we are to accept the premise that divine inspiration from Christ, post ascension, is not possible, then we would have to entirely scrap the Pauline works as invalid. There is a plethora of citations that depict Christ appearing to various personages and giving instruction long after the ascension. You've cited some of them yourself here. Tap dance? No, it's an explanation of my opinion, and I did give New Testrament references that plainly show a deviation from the books of the prophets. Common sense says if they were that loyal to the prophets, we could cross bacon off our list of breakfast foods. I personally believe that most if not all Gospels are visionary in nature, and reflect the beliefs, backgrounds and mores of the authors. Naturally, their Christ would believe and teach what the authors believed. Can we use their beliefs as building blocks for our own? Absolutely. To get back to the topic, there is no reason to believe that the Son of an all knowing God believed the world to have been created in six days, or that it had ever been flooded, since these are erroneous beliefs. We get around this by believing that He had no interest in teaching history and science, but morality. Now as to modern day prophets and prophesies, I have heard nearly every year of my three score that the world is going to end next year, Atlantis is going to be found within five, and the president is secretly meeting with beings from another planet. Are these self proclaimed prophets really prophets? Yes, in that they say they are, and they may boast a great many followers, but I am not included in their numbers. I don't believe for one second that God hates Oklahoma or Japan or New Orleans.
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Post by Soulgazer on Jun 2, 2013 8:55:31 GMT -5
Well, I am in no way setting myself up for as an authority figure on this. I just have a strong opinion, but recognise that it is opinion. As the saying goes, "Your milage may vary".
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Post by waywardwanderer on Jun 2, 2013 19:17:05 GMT -5
It does seem that when he says all that came before him were as thieves and robbers he is making a sweeping condemnation of the prior prophets. Is there any indication if what he thinks of potential prophets that may come after?
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Post by Soulgazer on Jun 3, 2013 6:28:38 GMT -5
John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
4:44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.
6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
12:[38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? [39] Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, [40] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. [41] These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.The above citations are all from the Gospel of John. I did not include every reference to prophets that are to be found there, neither did I cite all the references to acts that were the fulfillment of prophecy. It is simply not responsible to take a single passage out of context and extrapolate it into some sort of blanket condemnation. If you read that text in context, it becomes an entirely different thing having nothing whatsoever to do with prophets. In light of the above citations, I offer the following for your consideration. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Yes, context is everything; The Gospel of John came from the Naasene gnostics; We don't know much about them other than their usage of the text in a way that differs from common usage today. We do know that there is a strong relationship between the "parrable of the sheep" in John with the "parrable" of the sheep in Enoch, when God "hired" the seventy shepherds to watch over the "flock". The shepherds in Enoch were predicted to be found untrustworthy--- thus the saying of Jesus as found in John would be a fulfilment of that prediction, and an indictment of the teachings of the pharisees who relied on them. Thematically, this is common in John--- The pharisee were aparently unpopular with the Naasene authors. The pharisee, as portrayed in this story, searched their scriptures to find the Messiah, but were unable to recognise Him standing in front of them, because they lacked gnosis. The Hellenized Jewish logic of the story spreads pieces of the puzzle to let the discerner find the answers in a non obvious fashion: "We are Moses diciples" is the battlecry of the Pharisee--- "Ye are children of the devil" is the answer of the Gnostic. "You define who your father is by your actions" says Jesus in John, a continuation of the proem given at the beginning of the story, and harmonious with "the inner man defines the outward action" theme common in so many Gnostic writings. That the writers believed in the validity of the stature of prophets is beyond question; I think what they were disputing was the interpretation given to the prophets by Judaism in general. By the time the Gospel of John was written, Christianity was actively seeking to establish itself both as a replacement for Judaism, and also an identity that distinguished itself from Judaism. Put in the context of earlier Pauline thought, the prophets brought the letter of the law, or death, where Jesus brought the spirit of the law, or life.
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Post by Soulgazer on Jun 3, 2013 19:56:40 GMT -5
I don't think we have to be at odds at all; just as there is flesh and spirit, or my favorite, "I have a wheat side and a frosted side", when we are looking at the scriptures, we have historical fact and we have mythology.
We are dedicated to the spirit of truth, or rather, when occupied by the spirit of truth, we look for the entire truth, historically, rationally, and spiritually. Sometimes we takes leaps of either intuition or imagination--- which is great; that's when we learn to fly.
However, we also have to have an anchor in the physical truths which we hold to be a reflection of the reality behind the veil. Truth comes into this world in types and images. Look at the pharisee who could not see Jesus for the writing in their book. Look at the Scopes Monkey trial, when again the type and image of the pharisee could not see the truth for the writing in their book.
The Christian pharisee is a fulfilment of the type and image, "prophesied" in John, as much as Jesus was a fulfilment of "emmanual" prophesied to signify a military victory in Isaiah, which came about not as a victory, but as a defeat.
We are taught of God, by God, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God--- and even the most trivial of information that is true, is of God because all truth is of God.
We don't have to see things as "either / or" my friend, but layers, like an onion.
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Post by Soulgazer on Jun 3, 2013 23:17:30 GMT -5
It's not that hard to believe when we read the news!
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