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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 20, 2013 2:41:14 GMT -5
I've been thinking some lately about all the back and forth about whether or not the GOJ portrays Judas in a positive or negative light.
And I think the most important verse is in both Deconick's and the Nat'l Geographic version where Christ says "You betray the man that clothed me."
Since the physical world is an illusion it seems like Christ is really saying: "You couldn't betray me in a trillion years." No matter how you translate the rest of the text Judas is completely impotent to do anything to Christ. It doesn't matter if he is good or evil b/c he is powerless.
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Post by Soulgazer on Jul 20, 2013 6:53:16 GMT -5
Good catch!
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 20, 2013 11:57:06 GMT -5
Thanks Soulgazer  I messaged April DeConick on Facebook about this last night, so hopefully I'll get her thoughts on this. I feel like the whole focus on the Gospel of Judas from the onset has been misplaced. The crux of the text seems like a rejection of blood atonement. When it was written Christianity was still wrestling with it's own identity. It doesn't make sense at all that the Sethians were worried about the popular perception of Judas, which has been what the entire debate surrounding that text has been about. I feel like the text was named "Gospel of Judas" b/c the Sethians believed blood atonement was a betrayal of Christianity, and the theme of the gospel was betrayal, not because they were specifically interested in the figure of Judas as a hero or villain. |
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Post by waywardwanderer on Jul 20, 2013 23:24:03 GMT -5
I have never got around to reading it but this has my curiosity up, guess I know what's next on the list now.
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 21, 2013 0:54:24 GMT -5
If you can get a hold of DeConick's translation I'd recommend that over the National Geographic translation.
However it would probably be good to read both.
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 21, 2013 9:17:25 GMT -5
Can you tell me why you think the author of GoJ thought the physical world an illusion?
g
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 21, 2013 18:38:04 GMT -5
I was wondering if I could specifically find a Sethian text or verse that specifically says the physical world is an illusion. (So if anyone knows one let me know  ) However "You betray the man that clothed me," points to a matter/spirit dualism. I think the spirit obviously being the only important half. I think it is pretty well established Gnostics believe the world is an illusion, but I'm not sure what all specific texts mention this. I know Treatise on the Resurrection says something to the effect that "The world is an illusion, but the resurrection is real." Not sure which group offhand was responsible for that text. Any input is welcome. I'm thinking about trying to write an op-ed or something, just for fun, about this if I can get a little more info. |
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 21, 2013 20:11:44 GMT -5
11. Truly, I say to you,
12. Judas, [ those who] offer sacrifices to
13. Saklas [...] God [...]
14. [...]
15. [...]
16. [...]
17. everything that is evil. Yet you
18. will do worse than all of them.
19. For the man that clothes
20. me, you will sacrifice
21. him. Already your horn has been raised,
22. and your wrath kindled,
23. and your star ascended,
24. and your heart has [...].
DeConick Translation.
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 22, 2013 0:36:56 GMT -5
I think it is pretty well established Gnostics believe the world is an illusion, but I'm not sure what all specific texts mention this. I know Treatise on the Resurrection says something to the effect that "The world is an illusion, but the resurrection is real." Not sure which group offhand was responsible for that text. I don't think it is well established at all. Seems the world of matter is a fact in most text and not an illusion. |
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Post by Soulgazer on Jul 22, 2013 8:33:05 GMT -5
The world of forms is established as temporal, and is given but slight import to the "reality" behind it in such text as "The Sophia of Jesus Christ". Not sure that it is ever established as "illusion" from the writings, though it may have been a common "feeling". The synoptic text such as Matt 10:28 also confirm this belief. The best modern equivalent metaphor for the world of forms that I can think of is a "gilded cage". cf "the Pearl" from acts of Thomas. The world of forms belonging to Seklas, or Samael or Yaldoboath, himself an illusion or imperfect creator god "created" by fallen wisdom in various texts. Try to pin it down too hard, and you could go nuts.
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 22, 2013 11:08:24 GMT -5
I agree that the world of form is given less significance over the world of spirit. I think we can establish that as a tenant to Christianity in general as you pointed out in the Matt 10:28 passage. But I don't see how the world of form are illusionary in either the Matt passage or in any of the Nag Hammadi texts. The world is a product of an error in the divine realm, this product is very much real in all texts that I can think of.
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 22, 2013 12:02:06 GMT -5
This is the text that came to my mind in reference to the physical world being an illusion.
"...do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth! Indeed, it is more fitting to say the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ.
But what am I telling you now? Those who are living shall die. How do they live in an illusion? The rich have become poor, and the kings have been overthrown. Everything is prone to change. The world is an illusion! - lest, indeed, I rail at things to excess!
But the resurrection does not have this aforesaid character, for it is the truth which stands firm. It is the revelation of what is, and the transformation of things, and a transition into newness. For imperishability descends upon the perishable; the light flows down upon the darkness, swallowing it up; and the Pleroma fills up the deficiency. These are the symbols and the images of the resurrection. He it is who makes the good." ~ Treatise on the Resurrection
There don't necessarily seem to be a clear outline of Gnostic beliefs, although one of the things I have always heard/read was that Gnostics consider the physical world an illusion.
Maybe this is just inferred from several sources. However there does seem to be a general understanding that the physical world is corrupt, temporary, and unimportant.
In the Secret Revelation of John the world is created as a reflection of heaven (if I remember correctly) yet it is an awful imitation. So in that sense I think it is accurate to say the world is a cheap copy, or an illusion of our true home. It may not be stated in so many words, but I believe you can draw that meaning.
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 22, 2013 16:08:53 GMT -5
I pictured illusionary as non-existent, kinda like doecetic in regards to Christ, ie. he only appeared to have a body but there really wasn't anything there at all. Then I decided to dictionary illusion and that is not the best definition. Something can be very real yet still an illusion. Like a bad copy of an original for example. With my new understanding I withdraw my objection to the term.
Now back to Judas and his sacrifice. If spirit is the only thing important, why does Jesus make such a huge deal out of how evil Judas is in sacrificing Jesus body? Judas is worse than those who kill babies? Seems the text puts quite a bit of significance on matter and Jesus body.
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Post by xpistissopheiax on Jul 22, 2013 16:42:29 GMT -5
It's hard to say really b/c there are so many lines missing. The Meyer's translation is like reading another book entirely. Is Judas the one who's evil is the greatest, or is it Yalda's? Hard to say. The resurrection is the "revelation of what is" so in that sense I think it makes Christ even more powerful. There is another text that mentions something about a cross of light over the cross. I'm not sure the context off hand... If I'm not mistaken some Sethians (or Gnostics) moved farther and farther away from the proto-orthodox view of the crucifixtion. I think in one text Christ feels no pain on the cross. In another text a different person is substituted for Christ at the last second (I've read this was intended to be a trick against YHWH). The idea that the crucifixtion is a either a formality or trick seems in line with the possibility that it is just a betrayal of Christ's illusory form. But again, I'm not enough of a scholar to confidently make that claim; I'm just connecting dots from different things I've read over the past several years. I think people look at that verse as Christ insenuating He is one half man and one half meat-suit. Even the term dualism implies a division between halves. In the context of matter/spirit dualism I think it is more accurate to say that the two halves are not equal, and they are in fact not even halves at all. In my mind an illusion does not even qualify as a "half." It's a false copy, that ultimately hides Christ's true form of a spirit. In the context of matter/spirit dualism the two halves are not equal, and they are in fact not even halves. I'm not sure there is a good answer... In my mind I see evil as an intention not an action. Judas's heart might be supremely evil in the act of betrayal, but it is still in my view an act of impotence. This is a poor argument to support my own case I suppose, but there is so little to go on b/c of the huge missing portions, and the wildy different translations, so I guess all anyone can give is a best guess. If I wanted to take liberties with the text, I think it would be interesting if the Sethians also viewed the proto-orthodox betrayal of Christianity also as an impotent gesture. Maybe in their minds the Christ's truth was ultimately incorruptable. But that's a bit of even wilder speculation |
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Post by g_n_o_s_i_s on Jul 22, 2013 17:55:16 GMT -5
Is Judas the one who's evil is the greatest, or is it Yalda's? Hard to say. Or is Judas Yaldy? That is my impression at least. |
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I messaged April DeConick on Facebook about this last night, so hopefully I'll get her thoughts on this. 
)