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Post by rmcdra on Mar 16, 2015 20:41:05 GMT -5
I noticed something recently. Anyone what to take a stab at reconciling this?
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.- Ephesians 4:11-13 but... Then I asked him, "Lord, how shall we be able to prophesy to those who request us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us, and look to us to hear an oracle from us." The Lord answered and said, "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?" But I said, "Lord, can it be possible to remove the head of prophecy?" The Lord said to me, "When you come to know what 'head' means, and that prophecy issues from the head, (then) understand the meaning of 'Its head was removed.' At first I spoke to you in parables, and you did not understand; now I speak to you openly, and you (still) do not perceive. Yet, it was you who served me as a parable in parables, and as that which is open in the (words) that are open. - Apocryphon of James
So prophecy is supposed to be a spiritual gift but the "head of prophecy was cut off"? These seem to conflict with each other.
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Post by friendofsophia on Mar 19, 2015 0:38:18 GMT -5
I've wondered about this passage in the Apocryphon of James too. Like all passages quoted to Jesus, this passage likely has many layers of potential interpretation. The one that sticks out to me is that perhaps James' and Peter's question was more about people-pleasing and Jesus was pointing that out to them. I think the idea that a prophet is someone that sees the future is a bit of a misnomer. A prophet is someone who is able to "read the writing on the wall" so to speak. To see the big picture and be able to express that too others. To repeat what others have said or to tell people what they want to hear was a sure way to get some people to consider you a prophet but to really do the work, to seek the Truth, suffer the consequences, reap the rewards, and be able to speak it in a way that others can understand......... that's what John the Baptist did. Jesus was pointing out to them that if they were trying to fill his shoes, they were going to fail..... be yourself instead and serve God in a way that only you can.
Politics often works its way into scripture so its likely that an intended message of this passage and the Apocryphon of James itself was the idea of Jesus telling James and Peter, "You don't really get it bro, but I love you anyway". Perhaps it was written during the time of diverse early Christianities: James representing those who saw Christianity as an extension of Judaism and Peter representing (as he often does in Gnostic texts) proto-orthodoxy. Maybe not, but it sure seems to have that theme throughout.
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tzvia
New Member
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Post by tzvia on Mar 23, 2015 20:04:42 GMT -5
Perhaps it's not John that Jesus is really talking about. Maybe he's talking about the man who "lost his head" over a teenage girl who danced for him (i.e. Herod)? As I remember the story - King Herod wasn't going to kill John. He had him locked up. However, one night while dining Herod's stepdaughter, Salome, danced for him and Herod was so taken with her dancing he told her he would give her anything she wanted. Herod was 1) drunk and 2) he wanted her sexually. His "head" (mentality) wasn't thinking very well and he blew it by giving Salome the promise he gave her. Of course, Salome being very young turned to her mother and asked, "what should I ask for," and that cinched it. Salome's mother had issues with John (legal issues over her divorce and remarriage to Herod Antipas who was her first husbands brother) and the rest of the story we all know. Salome asks for John's head. Herod never wanted to execute John. He was horrified that Salome requested John's death. If Herod had listened to his heart and soul (e.g. coming from a place of wisdom) instead of his mind (drunk and wanton) the whole thing would have never occurred. Maybe the message is that prophecy is a gift but it is reserved for those who can listen to and hear their heart and soul?
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Post by phantasman on Mar 24, 2015 22:31:33 GMT -5
I noticed something recently. Anyone what to take a stab at reconciling this? 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.- Ephesians 4:11-13but... Then I asked him, "Lord, how shall we be able to prophesy to those who request us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us, and look to us to hear an oracle from us." The Lord answered and said, "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?" But I said, "Lord, can it be possible to remove the head of prophecy?" The Lord said to me, "When you come to know what 'head' means, and that prophecy issues from the head, (then) understand the meaning of 'Its head was removed.' At first I spoke to you in parables, and you did not understand; now I speak to you openly, and you (still) do not perceive. Yet, it was you who served me as a parable in parables, and as that which is open in the (words) that are open. - Apocryphon of James So prophecy is supposed to be a spiritual gift but the "head of prophecy was cut off"? These seem to conflict with each other. I see Prophet and prophet as two different things. Websters describes prophet: 1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations: as a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will <Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah> 2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet 3 : one who foretells future events : predictor 4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group While Muhammad is revered as a Prophet, all you need is a following to see one as a Prophet. Prophets don't always tell of future events. This definition from Oxfords seems more correct: "A person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God:" But John was the last of definition 3 above. He spoke of that which is perfect coming. Paul said "when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away". This aligns with Secret James. Prophecy was always in part. In Ephesians, Paul uses prophet as the Oxford definition. The Disciple asked of Prophets like the Hebrews had, who prophesied in part. Christ says the last of these are gone with John the Baptist. Now we have to live among false prophets (those who thing they interpret future events by the will of God). 2nd Peter has Peter teaching of the day of the lord. But I don't see that as a prophesy Once we were able to receive the Holy Spirit, we use knowledge from her teaching to see the path ahead of us. Doesn't matter if it's one day or one millennium. Within our mind (or head) we now follow Christ who says "what is that to thee, follow me". If we get caught up in prophecies (foretold events), man can sway us.(think Jim Jones here). "My sheep hear my voice" through the Holy Spirit is all we need trust in. That's my take. Words can confuse without true image. Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon. -Gospel of Philip Philip warns us. I see the difference in Prophet, prophet, prophecy, etc. As I said on one other thread here, we cannot believe words as truth. If we do, the translators will confuse us. Like using Priest over elder.
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Post by rmcdra on Apr 5, 2015 12:17:24 GMT -5
Sorry for my delayed response. I've been working on my undergrad thesis. I think the most honest answer I can come to regarding this given the information that I have is that the authors disagreed on this subject. It could be possible that they are talking about different things but I don't want to build a house of cards in my head if this isn't the case. I know that Christian literature overall contains very diverse opinions that are used shape the Christianity we use for today. While I do believe that God still talks to us today, I don't think God needs a mouthpiece since we are emulating Christ. After all actions speak louder than words.
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