|
Post by phantasman on May 14, 2014 9:46:41 GMT -5
When I read this in 1 Corinthians 15, I envisioned something and wanted to pass it by others:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
I saw that it took one God to give a soul, and it was the true God who gave us the spirit. It was this "transgression" that made Adam aware, having knowledge of a truth and seeing things for what they were, that the physical was a lie. The so called "eating the fruit" gave man a spirit. Hence started the battle for the soul. The physical pulling one way, the spirit the other. The first law was a physical law, but Christ (in truth} taught everything, and made everything about the spiritual. Two masters. Mammon and spiritual God.
Paul speaks of first and second man. First and last Adam. Natural and spiritual. Then says "mystery".
Am I seeing this mystery? Comments.
|
|
|
Post by friendofsophia on May 15, 2014 1:40:32 GMT -5
When I read this post the other day I was quite amazed since Sunday I have been thinking a lot about the soul and spirit dichotomy. On Sunday we went to my mother-in-law's church to see her play in the bell choir. The sermon was real negative...especially to women, and we all left there irritated...especially my wife. To put things in a better perspective, I read her some passages from Hypostasis of the Archons to lead up to the verse when Adam sees spiritual Eve and says, "It is you who have given me life; you will be called 'mother of the living'. – For it is she who is my mother. It is she who is the physician, and the woman, and she who has given birth." It seemed a more fitting verse for Mother's Day than what we had heard in church earlier that day! Regarding soul and spirit, the text tells a story much like your vision where Yaldaboath creates a soul endowed Adam but the True God gives him a spirit through Sophia.
I read somewhere earlier this week about how Alchemists used a stag to represent the soul (horns pointing in many directions) and a unicorn to represent the spirit (a horn pointing in one direction). This ties in with the Exegesis on the Soul where the soul (or fallen Sophia) stumbles this way and that, aimlessly until she is shown who she truly is by Christ and she then becomes (or more accurately remembers who she has been all along) the Holy Spirit. That's my interpretation anyway. Another thing that struck me about this post was when "the first man Adam was made a living soul and the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." When I looked up "quickening" I discovered that it can refer to the moment in pregnancy when the pregnant woman starts to feel or perceive fetal movements in the uterus. Another translation reads life-giving spirit. This conjures the powerful image of Adam and Eve's eyes opening by Gnosis and the first little kicks of the Christ within humanity occurring simultaneously. All metaphors of course, yet perhaps pointing to something far more real than this keyboard on which I type!
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 5, 2014 8:09:36 GMT -5
A further thought on this.
When Adam and Eve transgressed, they now received the spirit. This spirit was a receptor of the "true God". Is it possible the first thing he revealed to them is that they were NOT made in his image (his true image), a liar from the beginning, as Jesus said, and that they felt their bodies shameful for that reason, so they covered them (knowing the true God over the creator God)?
It would be easy to see how the Hebrew scriptures progressed to change this view over time, just as the early church changes many of the gospel over time.
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 7, 2014 11:54:45 GMT -5
If Adam and Eve had to eat, wouldn't it be to stay "alive" (physically)? Death was eminent,IMO. Now who is the liar?
|
|
|
Post by Soulgazer on Jun 8, 2014 4:46:00 GMT -5
If Adam and Eve had to eat, wouldn't it be to stay "alive" (physically)? Death was eminent,IMO. Now who is the liar? John 10:8 "All that came before me are thieves and robbers"
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 9, 2014 11:06:53 GMT -5
If Adam and Eve had to eat, wouldn't it be to stay "alive" (physically)? Death was eminent,IMO. Now who is the liar? John 10:8 "All that came before me are thieves and robbers" Isaiah 45 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Scary. Verse 7 should say " I am the light" as Christ did, if we see Christ as also seeing the Father. Ignorance?
|
|
|
Post by Soulgazer on Jun 9, 2014 14:05:38 GMT -5
John 10:8 "All that came before me are thieves and robbers" Isaiah 45 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Scary. Verse 7 should say " I am the light" as Christ did, if we see Christ as also seeing the Father. Ignorance? Isaiah came before Jesus; to me anyway, when I read Jesus calling all that came before him "robbers", he meant that He himself was the only true authority, and everyone else had it so wrong that they were leading people to the wrong God.
|
|
unix
Junior Member
busy with full-time studies
Posts: 82
|
Post by unix on Jun 9, 2014 16:01:44 GMT -5
Great observations, phantasman and soulgazer!
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 12, 2014 12:10:41 GMT -5
Great observations, phantasman and soulgazer! You, my friend, contributed in your own way. Dr. Deconicks site backs up some of this (though she doesn't come out with it in that respect). I read her John 8:44 synopsis, and it fits right in. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. What beginning? It had to be man's beginning, since man is the one who is murdered. He couldn't be speaking of spiritual murder, IMO. We could think Cain. But where would that leave "truth" and "lies"? It had to be before Cain, as I see it. From the beginning, not after it. If the serpent lied, man was physically immortal from the beginning. If the creator lied, man wasn't immortal and the serpent made him aware of it enticing him with knowledge. So Christ made it clear when he said this of the Father: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".-Matthew 10 Once man received a spirit from the Father (transgression), mans destiny was now in the hands of the Father. And no flood, no eviction from Eden, nothing could take that control back. We choose to pursue it or reject it on our own. Then he says he speaks of his own. Speaking of himself? I am God? He glorified himself. The Father didn't do that. His son came and did it, becoming one of us, not to intimidate us with fear, but to attract us with love and kindness and patience. He wanted us to "know" the true God by the experience, not the lies. At least that's how I'm seeing it. And, of course, I'm willing to listen to another POV.
|
|
|
Post by Soulgazer on Jun 12, 2014 17:06:12 GMT -5
Alternatively, if we read John as Cerenthian in Origin, "44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.", could be refering to Moses. Exodus 2:12, when we are first introduced to Moses, he has just killed a man. In Numbers, Moses is busy killing stealing and destroying in the name of God. In addition, the logic comes full circle when the Pharisee accusers state that they are "Moses diciples" to the man that Jesus healed who had been blind from birth (which could be symbolism for those born into a religion).
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 13, 2014 17:53:41 GMT -5
It appears the conversation was centered on Abraham, and moved to God. But I agree. Because as Moses dictates the beginning as well, he authors the first five books. Kind of like believing Eusebius as author of the History of the Church, where we get much of what man has been believing.
I find it ironic that lately I have been thinking whether the "healing" Jesus was doing was just physical. And making the blind see came to mind.
In this, we find Jesus saying there isn't a difference in "forgiving sins" and "healing":
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
I don't rightly know at this point, SG. Verse 6 may be referring to his Earthly power. But it seems forgiveness of sins and healing was closely related during Jesus time here. And then the reference to the Pharisses as it is the sick who needs the doctor. Gee. the Pharisees were sicker than anyone, IMO.
Still playing that one out.
|
|
|
Post by rmcdra on Jun 21, 2014 9:46:00 GMT -5
The way I see this mystery is that we are made in both the image of God (spiritually) and in the image of the Demiurge (earthly). Though Jesus came in flesh and blood, he was Christ, the image of God. He was transformed from earth to spirit. We being in the image of God can be transformed even if we are in the image of the Demiurge. As long as we remain in the image of the Demiurge, we won't "inherit" the kingdom.
|
|
|
Post by rmcdra on Jun 21, 2014 9:51:13 GMT -5
It appears the conversation was centered on Abraham, and moved to God. But I agree. Because as Moses dictates the beginning as well, he authors the first five books. Kind of like believing Eusebius as author of the History of the Church, where we get much of what man has been believing. I find it ironic that lately I have been thinking whether the "healing" Jesus was doing was just physical. And making the blind see came to mind. In this, we find Jesus saying there isn't a difference in "forgiving sins" and "healing": 2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. 4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. I don't rightly know at this point, SG. Verse 6 may be referring to his Earthly power. But it seems forgiveness of sins and healing was closely related during Jesus time here. And then the reference to the Pharisses as it is the sick who needs the doctor. Gee. the Pharisees were sicker than anyone, IMO. Still playing that one out. There is a long tradition throughout human history of associating sickness with divine punishment. Basically if you were sick, then it was punishment from God or the gods because you committed some sin or blasphemy. This particular passage is basically a slap in the face to that concept, that even if one appears to be punished by God or cursed by God, one should give mercy and forgiveness to the sick because God is not about punishing people.
|
|
|
Post by phantasman on Jun 22, 2014 18:32:55 GMT -5
The way I see this mystery is that we are made in both the image of God (spiritually) and in the image of the Demiurge (earthly). Though Jesus came in flesh and blood, he was Christ, the image of God. He was transformed from earth to spirit. We being in the image of God can be transformed even if we are in the image of the Demiurge. As long as we remain in the image of the Demiurge, we won't "inherit" the kingdom. I find this true as well, my friend. But lately, I have pondered things spiritual and physical. And this included the "virgin" birth. I refer to Thomas when Christ said this: In 22: "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom." I believe Christ is speaking spirit here. If a mans seed conceives a child with his traits, how do we perceive the son of God, Jesus, when he was flesh? Flesh? Spirit? Or, as Thomas, did he spiritually place an eye for an eye, hand for hand, and because he was from flesh, did we see flesh? I take Philip to answer this: Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness. -Philip It was quite clear that Jesus was not as physical as other men: "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water".-John 19 I believe Jesus was pure spirit animating a fleshly body, spirit making people see and feel flesh. One can ask if Jesus even had a soul. Or if he had been able to have an autopsy, would they find organs. A possibility of why there was no body in the tomb. Of course, I argue nothing. I demand no proof nor provide it. It's just an "image". But we do know there were unique things happening that defied normal physics. And this is just another view of it.
|
|
|
Post by Soulgazer on Jun 22, 2014 21:17:29 GMT -5
But lately, I have pondered things spiritual and physical. And this included the "virgin" birth. I refer to Thomas when Christ said this: In 22: "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom." If you will allow, I interpret 22 thusly; Understanding that the old concept of gender, deformity and economic standing was interpretted quite literally; that if you were poor, maimed, sick, or deformed, you were to be viewed as a "sinner" recieving your just fare. Women were inferior, regarded as chattle. You might be pleasent toward them on the outside as politeness dictated, but inwardly, they were inferior. Verse 22 stands this on it's head--- Modernizing the speech a bit " when you feel toward people on the inside as you display to them outwardly, when you see neither wealth nor poverty but a person, when you see neither man nor woman but a person, and when a persons disability or lack of limbs no longer prevents you from seeing them as a PERSON, then and only then may you count yourself as having entered the kingdom". Duality at it's finest.
|
|